Looping the Hen Games

Just to find a starting point and give myself something to work with, I did my best to divide the fighter and sorcerer down to their base components to try to find a way to cost their abilities. I picked the fighter as the most basic combat class with the least amount of odd abilities and the sorcerer as the same from the magic side. I actually never realized that sorcerers get their 2nd level spells a level later than Wizards (4th instead of 3rd).

So for the fighter's base abilities I came up with:

BAB +1
Fortitude Save +2
1 base feat
1 bonus feat
8 base skill points
All armour
All simple weapons
All martial weapons
d10 hd (I plugged this into the formula at 5.5 average hp's)

For the sorcerer I came up with:

BAB +.5 (I know this isn't technically accurate as .5 BAB does no one any good, but this is more of a placeholder for the Sorc's BAB overall, which has a .5 progression)
Will Save +2
1 base feat
8 base skill points
All simple weapons
1 spell level (again, I took the liberty of not counting 0-level spells as a spell level, but I did count their spells toward the sorcerer's spell point total)
4 base spell points
A familiar
d4 hd (2.5 average hp's)

Now, there is a way to get a base estimate of the 'value' of some components of a character. For example, because there are feats that give a +2 saving throw, I estimate the value of a feat as twice as much as 1 point of a saving throw. Additionally, there are feats that provide an average of 3-4 skill points, and 3 hit points. All of these allow a base conversion value for feats and a number of other character components.

Next, I took the smallest component I could find, both skill points and hit points, and arbitrarily assigned them a value of 1. From there I assigned the value of a feat as 4 (although a case can be made for it being more or less than this; this is just an early exercise). A point of BAB is 10, as it is valuable not only in and of itself, but because it is the route to multiple attacks. A save point is worth 1.5 (based on the feat value this could easily be 2, but because every class ends up with the same total save points, I'm not too worried about this stat right now). A familiar is 10, light armour use is 5, heavy is an additional 5 (I'm not sure how much value medium armors really provide, so I'll stick with 2 levels of armor for now), and each weapon category is 5. A spell level is 10 and a spell point is 1. (I'm not sure how to get spell selection in here yet, one reason I used the sorcerer as they don't have near so many choices as a wizard or cleric)

Again, most of these are arbitrary but weighted where I could on equivalencies between the various early benefits feats can provide.

I'm surprised the scores for both a 1st level fighter vs. a 1st level sorcerer and a 20th level fighter vs. a 20th level sorcerer are as close as they are, even with just the first version of this system. For example, a 1st level fighter ends up (without taking any ability scores into account) at 54.5 points, while a 1st level sorcerer ends up slightly lower at 51.5 points. I think this mirrors a fighter's overall usefulness at 1st level, if not understating it a little. At 20th level, where your average sorcerer would probably win a 1-on-1, the sorcerer's total points are 522.5 and the fighter's are 484.

Close yet, but those ending scores also point to a potential problem. A 20th level sorcerer is easily more than 20 times as powerful as a 1st level, so I would have guessed they should end up with more than 1000 points. At least one thing to take into account is that spells ramp in power to where 9th level spells are much more than 9 times as effective as a 1st level spell. Thus, I should probably weight each spell level more than the one before it (10 for 1st level spells, 20 for 2nd, 30 for 3rd, etc). Doing this yields 882 points for our 20th level sorcerer. On the fighter's side, we probably need to take into account the benefits of moving from BAB+5 to BAB+6, because it doubles the number of attacks I can make. For this, let's try 10 points per total BAB (thus, at 7th level, it would cost 90 character points because a fighter's attacks are +7/+2). Doing this bumps the fighter to 782 points and the sorcerer to 932 points.

Yes, that's a much bigger difference than I started with, but I think the sorcerer is getting close to the number of char points he should have at 20th level and still is only around 20% different than the fighter, indicating I am the right path (I hope). Simply changing the weight of BAB to 15 points instead of 10 puts our fighter at 1034 points and the sorcerer at 1007.5. I'm not saying that is 'more correct', but it shows the kind of tweaking that will be required to truly make a workable system.

I also think that it can easily be seen that some feats or far more valuable than others. Just a guess, but I would say 'Two-Weapon Fighting' is probably more valuable than 'Additional Turning'. This system will allow an adjustment so that one could take 3 or 4 of the weaker feats in place of 1 more powerful one, potentially allowing some truly 'jack-of-all-trade' characters.

Next post (probably tomorrow) I will work on converting attributes to point values and see how equivalent they are, as now I have some tools to do so. For example, if a BAB is worth 10, we know that 2 points of strength is worth more than that, because it provides +1 to hit as well as damage, among other benefits.

Pondering this some today, I thought it might be interesting because a player could truly make a monster of a character attribute-wise, but they'd have few skills or feats to use them with.

Anyhoo, hope I didn't bore everyone!

Posted by at 3:47 PM | Permalink | Comments (5)

In addition to the two games I am running, I am starting two new long-term projects, with target completion some time in mid-2007. The first is to create the 'point-based' character creation I mentioned a few posts back. The second is the design of a new campaign. Both of these items I am very interested in working with the players to make the most balanced, interesting systems I can. For the point-based system, it would be strictly optional, as new players most likely would find it confusing and wouldn't necessarily know how to assign points to make a character they like.

For the campaign, I am very serious about the level of interactive involvement I would like on the design level. We have all learned a lot about the rules, what is fun and what isn't, and I would like to carry over those experiences into a new campaign.

My current thinking about the new campaign is to create more of a high-fantasy theme with more non-basic character classes, prestige classes, creature templates and races. I would completely revamp the races away from fantasy standards (such as dwarves and elves), and redo the deity and planar system, as the more I think about them, the more random they seem to be, and ineffective in terms of what I want in a campaign. For folks who would like to help, I would love to implement player-made classes, races, and even countries/npc's, assuming everything fits into the new milieu in a way that seems consistent and interesting. If it's a powerful race or class, it would still be a playable option, just with an ECL modifier like I am using now for the elves and frost dwarf. (So yes, the new campaign would allow ogre half-dragon, half-celestial spirit shaman's, assuming one doesn't mind a +7 ECL or so).

My next post is going to be an initial foray into the point-buy character system and some interesting first results I had trying to break down 2 classes into their base components.

Posted by at 2:41 PM | Permalink | Comments (3)

A foul wind carries the scent of burning wood and brimstone mixed with the stench of hobgoblin and ogre to the lonely city. The constant pounding of war drums and the barking laughter of the devil has kept the remaining smallfolk awake for days, most others having fled for the perceived safety and quiet of the warren of tunnels and chambers under Freedom Province City. Occasionally the ring of stone on stone punctuates the thrum as the enemy ranges their siege engines.

What was once a divided and more curious than belligerent group of creatures outside the walls is now decidedly less so. Those who refused to follow the devil are either dead or fled. No more than 200 yards from the main gate, a single banner with a crest of fire and thorns is now raised in place of emblems of the Riversang Subdaeks. Ogre mercenaries from the forest, hobgoblins formerly ruled by Salon-Tai, and a dozen dark dwarves from Selathin Manor. A few other, more shadowy figures have been sighted from the walls.

Tensions and fatigue run high in the city. The proud cavalry are exhausted and even their trained mounts are skittish after 5 days with little sleep. The militia are resting as they can with ear plugs and localized silence spells cast by enterprising hedge wizards. Other than Slippers and her mother Socks, the hippogriffs have fled to the Celestial Observatory. Merilee remains in the stone keep as control of her powers and tears have slipped in equal measure. Dalyne and the Rangers have taken to the forests, promising to aid as they can if the town is attacked en masse or if the fight is taken to the enemy. Brooke's owlbears prowl the woods as well, picking off sentries and scouts where they can, however not without losses. One of the great beasts stands crucified in the center of the devil's encampment, dark magic preventing its death or transformation as its blood gives strength to the humanoids.

The Druid and the Dwarven ambassadors and the remaining carpenters work feverishly to complete catapults and trebuchet, intermixing the power of wood and earth and stone. Appropriate missiles have yet to be located, however. An adolescent girl spends alternate hours of the day praying over the gates from a new book of prayer and railing with foul words at those without, taunting them with promises of retribution from her Bright Lord. The frost dwarf forges steel and keeps his blades sharp, wishing they would just open the gates, preferring death to inaction.

The great experiment stands on the head of a pin. Defeat of the enemy brings the risk of potentially greater foes, while doing nothing resolves nothing. The town looks to their heroes for inspiration.

Posted by at 11:02 AM | Permalink | Comments (4)

Barring special circumstances, non-standard rezzes will be limited to 2 per player. If you can find and pay a high-level Cleric, that will be done on a case-by-case basis. Just as I don't have typical 'magic shops' in-game, I have a hard time believing a 15th level Cleric will just take gold for spells, and will most likely look for a combination of gold, time, exp, and deeds, as well as assuming the alignment of the dead player is not too far off from the Cleric in question.

On the Barbed Devil and wandering monsters in general. First, on his power level. Just as your party is very powerful and wanders from place to place, often killing things, other powerful creatures including dragons, war parties, spellcasters, slayers and others are just as likely to have to go from point A to point B as well, and you have a chance of running into them. Your last 6 random encounters were 3 ruins, a defunct clay golem, a cowardly goblin war party and the Barbed Devil, so it is not like you are awash in overpowered encounters. There have been other encounters with creatures just as powerful (and more powerful, such as the Gith, the Dragon and the Advanced Displacer Beasts), but not so belligerent. You are in a hostile world full of hostile creatures, many of them more powerful than you, so I have no plans to change the way I generate random encounters or their challenge level. Additionally, this particular bad guy has been hunting for y'all for over a month, so it was about time for him to show up.

As for the 'he has no weakness' argument, I was a little surprised by this one, and it is not the first time it has been mentioned. Powerful creatures have few, if any, weaknesses, and a well-made character is no exception. The Barbed Devil had a limited number of spell points with which to cast fireball, that the party could have easily weathered, so his goal was to make people close with him (which y'all did) where he is much stronger. Powerful creatures that do have weaknesses tend to make one of their main goals dealing with them.

For example, Orsen knows he has a fire weakness, so he went had a magic item made to help deal with it, as well as choosing abilities that help compensate for them. Just the same, monsters with glaring weaknesses will attempt to mitigate them with allies, spell buffs, or magic items. If your party has weaknesses, it might be time to try to fix them, because you don't have any control over what powers monsters may or may not have.

Other than that, it wasn't too bad a couple hours with only 2 players.

Oh, on the unpublished comments thing, I am being hit with huge amounts of spam comments, and I didn't mean to block anyone. I still see all the posts and will publish them ASAP. I am not 100% sure of the website, but I think if you go to www.typekey.com and register I can mark y'all as 'trusted commenters' so your comments will show up automatically.

Posted by at 9:26 AM | Permalink | Comments (13)

In general, I try to have mixed-magic campaigns. Fewer magic items overall, but more interesting ones. More one-use type items and the like. I try to avoid the 'he has a +3 sword, +2 ring, +2 armor, +1 shield' thing that happens in a lot of the pre-made modules and campaigns, because those types of items don't seem very 'magical' to me. (I even plan on changing the WLD items on occasion to have a more interesting set of items).

As part of that, I have always intended resurrection to be a rare and wondrous thing. It's absolutely my fault, but it's gotten way outside that realm, and I'd like to hear from everyone what they think about resurrection and its effect on the game.

My main thought has always been, one 'second chance' is a good thing, but more than that and the challenge and sense of accompishment can easily seep out of a game. When a party stands at 20th level (if that ever happens) I want them to be able to look back and say, 'holy moly that's an accomplishment'. Allowing readily accessible resurrection I feel is detracting from that, as several of the party members have had multiple rezzes.

I know people get attached to their characters; heck, I get attached to your characters. However, even harkening back to the huge discussion we had regarding changing character classes, easy resurrection is one of the things that has prevented people from exploring new class opportunities that might be better suited for them or might be more enjoyable.

Part of my intent of the last rebirth of Kyrie is to say 'this is the end of the line,' but also do it in a way that is unique and fun. If you die again as a celestial, you are already close to your deity, and she will most likely call you home. If Jerel or Orsen die again, they might get a similar 'buffed' option particular to their class and race, but again, after that all bets are off.

I think level loss, exp loss and the like work well once, but they don't reflect well on the gravity of the situation. Heck, people are at the point where they readily sacrifice 1500 exp to save a magic item (or create one). Luck points were never really intended for that purpose, as they were more meant to land the heroic blow or prevent the odd critical hit Total Party Kill kind of thing, and as of now, the sacrificing experience points option is off the table. Also, luck points are also off the table for anything other than saving one's life or killing a bad guy.

I don't want to overly complicate things, but I think there are a couple of reasons we are having these challenges. First, we don't have a regular 4th party member yet, and it's making what should be average challenges into very hard challenges. (Although I didn't expect the charge straight into the multiple +18 attacks of the barbed devil either!) Second, and one that is presenting more than just logistical challenges, is the fact that we are mixing characters of different levels. Orsen is adjusting easier due to his being pretty hardy for a low-level char, but I have a feeling it would be very difficult to truly bring in the hexblade or the rogue.

Again, I am asking for opinions on how to rectify this? Do we run a 2nd game every 3rd session or so where everyone starts a fresh character? That way, if someone dies (or everyone for that matter), they have another character 'in the oven' so to speak? I'm not set on this idea, but the new player thing is not working like I want it to. Jerel and Kyrie and even Furea still have more backstory than Orsen, because he is going the 'rushed route'. He never got the chance to do quests and things to better his clan because he was immediately dragged into the realm of the other party members. Not that it hasn't worked, because he has adjusted pretty well, but it hasn't given him the same level of development as I feel every char should have.

I hope everyone will jump in and comment on this thread, as it will have impact on this game, and probably most future ones. As I said, I don't know what all the fixes are, but I do know that the impact of luck has to be decreased, and the rarity of resurrection increased. How we do that, I am open to talking about.

Thanks!

Posted by at 9:26 AM | Permalink | Comments (6)